6 June, 2008
Last night, Philippines TV aired a news programme – Reversals of Fortune – which featured two interviews with two men who used to head the Malaysian Government: former Prime Minister Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad and his former deputy Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim. Here is the full transcript of that show with Maria Ressa
The Malaysian Insider
Maria Ressa:
Leadership, good governance and the struggle for power have an impact on all our lives. Tonight, we speak with two men who have held and lost - and seem poised to again gain - tremendous power. Join us in ANC's special presentation - REVERSALS OF FORTUNE.
Hello and welcome to Reversals of Fortune. I'm Maria Ressa.
Malaysia is on the cusp of change after the results of its general elections on March 8 permanently altered its political landscape. Headlines called it a political tsunami.
For the first time ever, the ruling coalition - the Barisan National led by Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi won just 51% percent of the votes, and 63% of parliamentary seats.
While that sounds like a substantial win for most other nations, for Malaysia - it's comparable to a landslide loss.
This was the ruling coalition's worst performance ever in Malaysia's 50 years of independence - losing 5 of 13 states to the Opposition.
For the first time since 1969, Barisan National lost its two-thirds majority in Parliament.
No one was watching more closely than the man many credit with Malaysia's economic and social success - Dr. Mahathir Mohamad - prime minister for 22 years.
Immediately, he blamed the loss on his successor and called for the resignation of Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi.
On May 16, the government ordered an investigation into the corruption of the justice system, essentially accusing Dr. Mahathir of rigging the courts.
Three days later, Dr. Mahathir resigned from the ruling party, saying he would return only if the Prime Minister quit.
Last week, I sat with Dr. Mahathir in Kuala Lumpur. In a wide-ranging interview, he talked about his hopes, his fears and the reasons for his actions.
In the nearly 2 decades I reported on him as Malaysia's Prime Minister, he was always outspoken about his world views - which differed significantly from his western counterparts. So that's where we began.
Maria Ressa:
What global trends are you watching now?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
I’m watching, actually, the collapse of the international financial regime, the failure of the US and the US dollar as an international currency for trading. The failure of the US itself in its management of its economy. And of course we have seen the failure of the US in trying to bring about democracy in other parts of the world.
Maria Ressa:
So how is this affecting all of us?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Of course it’s going to affect us, if the US economy goes into recession, the US is a big market for all of us – and certainly for Malaysia. 20% of our export goes to the US – and we are going to lose at least some of it. And of course the effect on the stock market – that already is having a very bad effect on the world stock market and these ideas about financing nothing, selling nothing and making tons of money, that is what the sub-prime thing is all about has dragged the whole world down with...once the system collapsed.
Maria Ressa:
What can governments and the people in our countries do to mitigate the effects on our economies?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Well, each country would have to face this separately and deal with it according to their own priorities and their own problems. But I think the time has come for the world to once again have a second in order to restructure the international financial regime which has been subject to manipulation by currency traders and others.
Maria Ressa:
Is this kind of a replay for you of the Asian financial crisis?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Well, it seems that what we did in Malaysia in 1997 shows that what we said about the international financial regime was right. And I think many people agree that it was right.
Maria Ressa:
But you don’t disagree that the Federal Reserve should have rescued Bear Stern?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
No I think that they told us was that you must not rescue bankrupt companies, but the moment they were faced with the same problem, they came up with 20 billion -30 billion dollars, billions of dollars and the dollars of course are just pretty money, because it comes from the federal reserve and the federal reserve is in the business of printing money. So those are pieces of paper that are worth nothing and yet they are used to prop up their companies.
Maria Ressa:
Could governments have demanded greater accountability on something like this - like the CDOs, globally, everyone invested in them?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Yes they could demand more responsibility on the part of the leaders of the United States. But apparently these leaders are under the influence of big money. Especially of people who manipulate money. And they don’t have the strength or the courage to say no to these people. That is what has happened. And internationally, other leaders fear that if the US collapses, they will collapse along with them. So they are of two minds: to tell the US to stop in which case it might collapse and not totally – they are between the devil and the deep sea here.
Maria Ressa:
So how far away are we from creating a new kind of financial order?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
We have gone through quite a lot of pain, I don’t see why knowing that more pain is coming that we shouldn’t start now. We should start now. We should recognise the signs. I mean, how much more do you need to convince you that the US is not well-managed? That the leaders have got no understanding of the world? This is the country that professes to be the biggest power in the world.
Maria Ressa:
I think Americans understand that that’s why they’re also clamouring for change now.
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
But the Americans, by and large, do not know the rest of the world. They look upon the US as the world. This is their problem. That is why when they play football or baseball, they call it the World Series but its confined to the Americans. They have to get out of that kind of feeling that America is the world.
Maria Ressa:
It seems that the poorest are the ones who are gonna be most affected. Inflation is increasing globally, any advice for the governments who are trying to deal with this?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
When the world’s economy goes down, the poor countries are the ones that will suffer the most. So they need to come together, they need to counter the G8, for example, which decides basically for the rich without caring at all for the poor.
Maria Ressa:
Are you saying the same things you said during the Asian financial crisis?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Practically the same thing because it is still relevant. I’m being consistent because the situation demands consistency.
Maria Ressa:
You’re still also saying that the US is using one standard for itself and another for other nations.
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Quite definitely, quite definitely. This “might is right” kind of philosophy.
Maria Ressa:
Let’s focus on the Philippines - where we’re from. What do you think of the situation there now?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Well, from here it looks quite bad, I think people who are there would feel much worse than we. We can visualise the problem. There is something that has no solution because it is very complex.
It has to do a lot with the psyche of the Philippine people which have all along depended on remittances from abroad. They, if they are faced with a problem, most of them really leave the country. You have to stay back and attend to the problems at home.
Maria Ressa:
Well there’s a lot being said about dissatisfaction in leadership.
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
The leaders must be sensitive to the wishes of the people. Of course I don’t mean the extremists who are always complaining about any leader, and wanting them to come down. But when the complaint is substantial and can be substantiated, then leaders must respond to them.
Maria Ressa:
You know President Arroyo personally,
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Well, as a person, she is a very nice person and I like her and she has always been very friendly to us Malaysians. However, I think probably the problem of the Philippines is too big for one single person.
Maria Ressa:
Let me bring you to Malaysia, the March elections is actually the first time that the ruling coalition has had the slimmest majority in its 51 year history. What’s going on in Malaysia today?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
What’s going on is that the party which used to govern this country has been taken over by the present leader for his own use and for his family. And as a result, of course, people feel that their own problems are not being looked after, not being attended to, and they have lost their respect for the leader. And as a result in the last election, they voted for the opposition.
The usual supporters of the government voted for the opposition but such was their fear of action being taken against them that they never told anyone, not even amongst themselves that they were going to vote for the opposition.
And so it came about that the government lost much more than anyone expected including myself.
Maria Ressa:
What do the people want that the government is not giving right now?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Basically, the people simply want to change the Prime Minister. That’s all. And they believe that without him, somebody else would be able to do the right thing, certainly not give priority to families, to their own families.
Maria Ressa:
You’ve called for the resignation of Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi, but he was the man you chose to succeed you.
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
I knew that anybody succeeding me would want to change certain things but not reverse things and do things which are really damaging to the country and the country’s economy. Not knowing that, of course, I promoted him. But the first thing he did, almost the first thing he did was to reject all the things that I have done and even go so far as to blame me for finishing all the money it seems.
Maria Ressa:
Were you surprised that there’s even a possibility now that you might be investigated for corrupting the justice system?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
I believe that the whole royal commission was set up for that purpose because the royal commission singled me out not on the basis of any real evidence but on possibilities. They talk about the possibility of my doing something. There is no evidence. But based on possibilities, I should be investigated.
Maria Ressa:
Do you see this as a retaliatory move?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
I’m aware that all this while I’ve been out of the government, the government has tried to find something wrong with the period when I was Prime Minister - whether I received money, corruption, or had abused power. But so far they cannot - so they had to come up with this in order to blacken my name.
Maria Ressa:
On May 19th, you resigned from the ruling coalition that you created, and you led for 22 years. Why did you choose to make that move because it was surprising to people, and then secondly, could this be worse for the ruling coalition?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Well, the reason why I left is because the party is no longer the same party which I led and which has been led by previous Prime Ministers.
Could it be worse? I think if I don’t leave, if this man still remains the leader of the party, it could really destroy the party, and it will - in the next election - probably result in total defeat for the party.
Maria Ressa:
But do you see everything only as the one man, or is it also the system, the coalition, that also helped empower him?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
No, this man is quite different from other Presidents. He insists that if you are not loyal to him then you are not loyal to the party. He keeps on repeating that.
During my time, there were many people, including him, being disloyal to me. But I never accused them of being disloyal to the party. It is within their rights to oppose me, but now anybody who says anything contrary to what he has been saying would be accused of being disloyal to the party and action taken. Like for example, projects are not, contracts are not given, you are not made minister or some other official that they are aiming for.
Maria Ressa:
When we return, Dr. Mahathir speaks about his former protege, Anwar Ibrahim - and in a rare confidence, he talks about an issue he says he rarely mentions because he is - in his words – “ashamed.”
More on that when Reversals of Fortune returns.
Maria Ressa:
The most emotional I've ever seen Dr. Mahathir was in 1998. Slumped over, dejected and teary-eyed, he announced that the government would be filing charges of sodomy and corruption against his deputy, Anwar Ibrahim - a man he nurtured, kept by his side, AND TRAINED to take over when he stepped down.
All those plans changed dramatically.
Mahathir's critics say it was nothing but a power play. Anwar fought for different policies to deal with the Asian financial crisis. The charges of corruption and sodomy, they said, were fabricated to keep Anwar in line.
That didn't work.
Homosexual acts – or sodomy - is a crime in Malaysia, and two men went to prison - for allegedly allowing Anwar to sodomise them. These are charges Anwar continues to deny, and after Mahathir stepped down, the sodomy convictions were overturned. Now Anwar is suing his former mentor for defamation.
Maria Ressa:
Anwar Ibrahim, what do you think of him today?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Well, he thinks he’s very popular, but you see what happened actually is that the supporters of the Barisan National, the government party, were so angry with the leadership that they would vote for anybody against that end. That is why even when they put up candidates who have never been in politics, like peddlers on the roadside were nominated by them, karaoke singers were nominated by them, and they all - to their own surprise – won. And they won because of the rejection of Barisan National. Not because they particularly like Anwar.
Maria Ressa:
So it’s the mistakes of the party. It’s just really a clamour for change?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Yes, there is a clamor for change in the leadership you see, but the party still retains the loyalty of the members. At least some of them, those who voted for the opposition remain as party members, but they will not talk about how they had voted for the opposition.
Maria Ressa:
Anwar is saying that he can see himself in power before the end of the year, do you agree with this?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Well, unless he manages to get support of members of Parliament from the Barisan National. He needs at least 35 of them to cross over. Otherwise, he cannot become the Prime Minister of this country.
Maria Ressa:
He says he can before the end of the year, is that possible?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
There’s much talk about people crossing over and people being paid some money and promised positions in government and all that. But so far we don’t see anybody crossing.
Maria Ressa:
In 97, I was there when you talked about charges of sodomy and corruption that would be given to him, slapped on him at that point. You were defeated, you were emotional - at least the most emotional I’ve ever seen you at that point. In retrospect now, given where we are today, did you do the right thing?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Yes, at that time I believe that I did the right thing. We just cannot have men indulge in such immoral activities becoming Prime Minister of this country. He opened himself to blackmail. Because of that I had to take a very difficult decision because I knew him. I was the one who brought him up. Yet I find that he indulges in these activities.
Maria Ressa:
He went to prison for six years, have your views changed about him during that time period?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
No.
Maria Ressa:
So you don’t see him as a viable alternative?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
At the moment, of course, he’s suing me for saying that he was involved in sodomy. With the idea that while the thing is before the courts, I cannot say anything. I have waited for him to take me to court, and it’s been years now. 3 years exactly. What he has done is to undermine the credibility of my lawyer so now I am without a lawyer. So I cannot say thank you to a man like this.
Maria Ressa:
Both men you chose, though, have disappointed you. I mean, essentially, you’ve said they aren’t good enough.
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Well, I have chosen very badly.
I had a problem with Anwar. Outwardly he’s a good man, but then I discovered these immoral activities. I had to take a decision.
So I appointed Abdullah. I told myself under no circumstances must I get rid of this man because then people would say you seem incapable of getting on with other people. So I stuck with that appointment and helped him to become Prime Minister. But, of course, you really only know what character he is after he became Prime Minister.
Maria Ressa:
Your critics will say it’s because they didn’t do what you wanted them to do
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
No, I don’t expect people to do everything that I ask them to do. Even when I was Prime Minister, there were people who opposed me. And they still stayed in government.
Maria Ressa:
With Anwar, you were very close to him personally, after you discovered this, did you sever ties?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Well, after I discovered this and confirmed everything, I checked up to find out whether it was true. Because I find it difficult to believe that a person who looks so pious should indulge in this thing. Once I was convinced by the police that he actually indulged in this kind of activities, I told him that he either resigns or I will take action against him, remove him.
Since he refused to resign, I had to sack him from Deputy Prime Minister which was within my power and as to being the Deputy President of the party, I had to leave it to the Central Committee, and the Central Committee agreed that he should be expelled from the party. After that, of course, I have not seen him.
Maria Ressa:
There’s talk that if Prime Minister Abdullah steps down, it will be his Deputy Prime Minister who would step in.
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
I think the whole system needs to be revamped.
Maria Ressa:
There seems to be, Sir, a growing clamour for change in many parts of the world. We’re seeing that in the United States. You’re seeing that in Malaysia. You’re seeing that in the Philippines. Is this something that is a byproduct of our times today? Do you see anything common in these experiences?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
I see them. I see the mismanagement of the United States as the prime cause, both in the economic field as well as in the political, military field.
Maria Ressa:
Given that, Sir, elections in the US are coming up in November. If Barack Obama wins, do you think that will change policies in the US?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
I think there will be change, but I don’t know what kind of direction he is going to take.
The US is very much manipulated by Israel, and the Jewish lobby is very strong in the US. It may be possible for them either to prevent Barack from winning or else they will be able to influence the policies of the US domestically as well as internationally.
Maria Ressa:
The Philippines is seen as a key US ally, do you think that has worked for or against the country?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Well I think the Philippines depends a lot on the US. Malaysia is not in that position so we can’t compare the Philippines with Malaysia.
Maria Ressa:
How important is the peace process in the Southern Philippines to the region?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
I think it’s very important. Because it is a rich region, I’ve been there and I’ve seen the soil there is fantastic. It’s unfortunate that there is no stability there.
But as far as the Muslims are concerned, it is not a fight between Muslims and Christians. It is territorial. Just as in Palestine, it is territorial. So is it with the Philippines. They want something, some territory for themselves. Of course they would want to be independent. Maybe they would be satisfied without having to break up the Philippines, but that would be something that has to be looked into.
Maria Ressa:
But yet Malaysia has pulled out of it.
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
We can try, but we see no progress.
Maria Ressa:
On both sides or just the government?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Both sides, I think.
Maria Ressa:
We have a very smart president. Her approval ratings, though, in the capital’s down - is 76% distrusting, and we’ve had election scandals, like I think you’re familiar with the Hello Garci scandal. She’s going to sit it out, and the argument is that it will actually make our institutions stronger, our democracy stronger. Because people power hasn’t taken us, the repeated people power has not taken us where we need to go. Do you agree with that?
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Partially. It depends upon the situation. Of course People Power was very good when it comes to removing Marcos, but to use People Power all the time is also not good.
Democracy is not about the street demonstration alone. It’s about sitting down and thinking carefully about what needs to be done and about people giving their support to good ideas and to good plans. Otherwise no matter who goes up there, he’s going to be subjected to the same criticisms, and he’s going to be brought down only to have another one replacing him and again. That person will have no chance to rule the country at all so that is not democracy.
Maria Ressa:
Is Malaysia in danger of doing something like that? We’re focusing on the leaders again.
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad:
Well, yeah, if a leader who has failed refuses to accept responsibility for the failure, well then of course, we may go down that road.
We have had leaders removed before. This is not the first attempt to remove a leader. The first leader of UMNO had to leave the party because he came up with an idea that was not acceptable. The second leader also withdrew but these people are sensitive. They knew the people didn’t like them didn’t agree with them, and therefore they resigned. Now when you have a leader who is totally insensitive who refuses to accept realities, then we have a problem.
Maria Ressa:
After the interview, Dr. Mahathir and I spoke privately - off the record. He said something so shocking, I went back and asked him if he would consider putting it on the record. He agreed.
Here then are excerpts from our recorded private conversation. The former leader of Malaysia said he doesn't talk much about this issue because he is - in his words - ashamed.
Umno is the ruling party that leads the government coalition.
Dr. Mohamad Mahathir: (on tape with full page graphics)
"Ministers were not allowed to see me. The ordinary members of UMNO were not allowed to see me. They cannot invite me. They will not attend any function where I may be speaking, but this thing, of course … Because the main press is completely under the control of one man. And he rings up the press to tell them what to say. See of course, they keep on saying, oh, but you did this thing during your time. But say the Truth - whether during my time I prevent people from meeting anybody."
Maria Ressa: (on tape)
They're afraid of you?
Dr. Mohamad Mahathir: (on tape)
"They are afraid of what I say. Now if I don't speak the truth, there is nothing to be afraid. We can always find out that I was lying, but since they cannot refute what I say, they are trying to silence me by preventing me any access to the media."
"I don't talk much about these things because I am ashamed."
Maria Ressa:
Those are shocking words to hear from Dr. Mahathir.
We tried to get the government's response. Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi said he was willing to speak with us but was away in Japan on official business.
When we return, the man now dubbed Malaysia's Prime Minister-in-waiting ... Anwar Ibrahim.
Maria Ressa:
Welcome back to Reversals of Fortune.
To appreciate Malaysian politics, we need to understand one of its people's greatest fear - a clash of races. This happened in deadly ethnic riots triggered by 1969 elections that scarred national consciousness.
Today, Malaysia’s population of about 27 million people breaks down to roughly 66% Malay, 25% Ethnic Chinese and 8% Indian.
To try to ensure harmony among its people, Malaysia became the only country in Asia with an affirmative action programme for its Malay majority - what Dr. Mahathir called the New Economic Policy or NEP.
Race-based policies are still important in Malaysia today, at times manipulated by its politicians.
Keep that in mind as we speak with 60 year old Anwar Ibrahim. No other leader in our region has come from such highs and emerged from such lows.
A former deputy prime minister and finance minister of Malaysia, Anwar was the protege of Dr. Mahathir, who groomed him for power. He was the Prime Minister-in-waiting.
All that changed in 1999, when Anwar was sentenced to six years in prison for corruption, and in 2000 to another 9 years for alleged homosexual acts or sodomy. But after Dr. Mahathir stepped down and Abdullah Badawi became Prime Minister, Malaysia's highest court reversed the sodomy conviction, and Anwar was released in 2004.
Now Malaysia's political drama revolves around the rivalry of these three men - Mahathir, Abdullah and Anwar. The irony is that they were once great friends.
Maria Ressa:
What do you see in the dynamics between Dr. Mahathir and the Prime Minister?
Anwar Ibrahim:
Dr. Mahathir has come out very critical and very rough.
Maria Ressa:
He’s asked him to resign …
Anwar Ibrahim:
Vicious, beyond that, calling him a liar, corrupt and incompetent. I think the blunder committed by Abdullah is that he seems to be on the defensive because many of the allegations are quite true. He has to deal with that firstly.
Secondly, I think he resorted to a very rough method of denying Dr. Mahathir his right to express his views freely. Just because Dr. Mahathir when he was in power denied others, does not mean or makes it right for us to deny him of his right. Because the Prime Minister Abdullah believes that he is on the right track. He should give the opportunity to Dr. Mahathir to express his views and then counter and use the media which should be free and fair. But our media is not free and fair, even after this huge political tsunami happening, they’re still in a state of denial.
Maria Ressa:
Until now….
Anwar Ibrahim:
Until now.
Maria Ressa:
You were all very good friends…
Anwar Ibrahim:
I maintain, I’m civil, I’m very polite with Dr. Mahathir, I see no malice, I accord the usual civil respects to Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi. But here we are talking about policies, major policy differences, of one system condoning corruption, the abuse of power, the destruction of the judiciary system. Which is now public knowledge. People do realise. And I think among the thinking public, even those may be more critical about Mahathir, do realise in a democracy for a person who has served that long or for that matter any individual, you must reserve this right to express his or her views. Why do you want to curtail that freedom unless you have something to hide or you are so scared?
Maria Ressa:
How would you describe what’s going on in Malaysia today?
Anwar Ibrahim:
It is a new awareness for change, and what is striking is that the change is phenomenal and the transformation is peaceful.
Maria Ressa:
What do the people want?
Anwar Ibrahim:
Well, we have been used to a virtual one-party control of the government, in the sense a strong semblance of leadership with very strong views. Perceived to be very arrogant, and I would add, blatantly corrupt, and because of the complete control of institutions of governance – the media, the judiciary - the authorities, therefore, they are immune to criticism and quite invincible.
And people have tolerated this semblance of opposition in places but they’ve never seen this as a multi-racial sort of an opposition. The government was able to sustain a level of support by always suggesting that it’s a threat to Malay power. That any collaboration of the opposition parties will benefit the Islamic party. And so the Malays, the Chinese are quite fearful of this. The Indians are only 10%. Subtly the message was clear - even threats that their welfare will not be guaranteed if they do not support the ruling party.
But this has changed, which means in this elections, the racial equation’s gone. There are attempts now to revive this – as you see in the threat to the Malay supremacy, the threat to the Malays, which I think are signs of desperate, the final desperate attempt by these corrupt politicians to remain in power.
Maria Ressa:
So the idea that there could be race riots in Malaysia – is this a fantasy? Was this a bogeyman that was created or do you think there’s still something there that Malaysians should be worried about?
Anwar Ibrahim:
In the elections in 1969 when the opposition had a small slight majority in two major states in the country, there were riots. In 2008 when there was five states including virtually all seats in the federal territory, there was NO riot.
The reason being that the opposition now is a multi-racial entity, led by Malays and Muslims, but supported to a large extent too by the minority Chinese and a smaller minority of Indians. So you have this new coalition called cynically by the ruling party as something that is not tangible or not sustainable in the medium term.
But three months after the elections, we are managing the states far better than the states controlled by the ruling party, Barisan National.
Maria Ressa:
For many, many years, the NEP - Malaysia had an affirmative action policy for Malays. This has changed, but how do you see it evolving in the future?
Anwar Ibrahim:
We are saying that the affirmative action policy should continue for the poor, for the marginalized - majority of whom are Malays and indigenous people. But not to be used as a pretext to enrich the few corrupt leaders and their families. This is precisely what is happening why even Malays are rejecting it.
Now they are - the ruling, the Barisan National, the Umno is twisting it, manipulating it to say that we are pro-Chinese. But I think I trust the wisdom of the Malay masses and the Malay citizenry that the country has lost competitiveness.
I’m a Malay. I’m a Muslim. There’s no question, no way I’m going to concede the fact that the Malays need to be helped. But it must be transparent. It must be based on merit. Helping a Malay does not mean that you discriminate against the minorities who have been here for the last hundred to two hundred years.
Maria Ressa:
When you mentioned corruption, has it gotten worse from the time you were still in government?
Anwar Ibrahim:
I would consider even when I was in government, it was bad. But now you have billions - billions of contracts just awarded to family members. With impunity I would say. With no concern.
You’ll find now that in states that we won, the new Coalition - the People’s Alliance - found a billion dollar approved without tender to family members, a billion dollar contract approved, without approval by state agencies or municipalities, without transparency.
The extent of what they were prepared to do just to enrich the few is too shocking - or pathetic - to say the least.
We offer them - look, we can manage this country and avoid leakages, and stop these billions of ringgit being stolen, these can be transferred back to the masses.
Maria Ressa:
And you think this can be done through the existing processes today?
Anwar Ibrahim:
Well, we are doing precisely that.
Maria Ressa:
But you’ve actually said that by September, by the end of the year, you would call for a no-confidence vote.
Anwar Ibrahim:
Yes, because people know that the electoral process was fraudulent.
You know, there’s now this big controversy two and a half month after elections - the election commission blaming the cabinet and the cabinet blaming it on the election commission chairman - why they had to cancel the use of indelible ink 5 days before the elections. This is a very serious matter. The EC chairman announced that well, it’s not wise for us to proceed with this because there may be explosives with this ink - the ink being used by countries including Indonesia, India and Turkey. Turkey is a Muslim country and they still use it. But in our case we used black ink, and it can be turned into explosives.
Of course, people know that this is lying to the public, but we know for a fact that the use of indelible link is to allow the government to not do massive rigging double counting, of phantom voting which you in the Philippines are quite familiar with incidents in the past.
Maria Ressa:
So you got these results despite the cheating, how much cheating do you think happened in the last elections?
Anwar Ibrahim:
Well, there’s of course a range of 3%, 5%, 10%, in some constituencies. The way it is done is to ensure that postal votes from the military is so huge. We won, for example, virtually all seats in the federal territory. We lost one critical seat. We won in the first counting then there were 14,000 postal votes being dumped into that particular constituency. You have to explain why is it that suddenly in one constituency there are 14,000 postal votes? There is no explanation.
And of course, there are phantom voters processed. We have produced evidence to this effect - evidence to prove that dead voters actually voted. But no action taken.
So people are aware. Once you are aware that there is cheating, people are then more confident that we would have won many more seats if the election process were free and fair.
Then people look forward for a change and many of them then volunteer. They approach me to say, look Anwar, I think we will be with you. And I say you’re welcome but I want to make sure that before this is done - together with the ruling, the coalition of the opposition - with a clear understanding that they understand that this is a reform agenda.
Secondly, that the process must be constitutional and legal, that’s why we’re looking at these options. But we also.
Maria Ressa:
Anwar says he now has the support necessary to call a no-confidence vote and create Malaysia's new government, but he wants to move judiciously to ensure a peaceful transition.
When we return, more on Anwar's personal journey and insights, the road he sees ahead and his visit to Manila.
All that ... when Reversals of Fortune returns.
Maria Ressa:
Anwar was severely beaten at the start of his 6 year prison term. Two years later, he was hospitalised for a spinal injury he says was caused by police brutality.
Until today, he maintains he is innocent.
Two weeks ago, Anwar's lawyers say he is now asking for a review of his case again after the release of a videotape sparked charges of manipulation of appointments of top judges for political reasons – essentially, corruption of the judiciary system. Among the six being investigated is Dr. Mahathir.
We pick up our conversation with Anwar's reflection of his time in prison.
Anwar Ibrahim:
It’s only natural that one gets angry, why human beings and friends could resort to such despicable method of not only political repression but physical abuse and cruelly. They were unjust, they were disgusting. But we have to move on.
Maria Ressa:
Six years in prison can change a man. How did that time change you?
Anwar Ibrahim:
Well, six years of solitary confinement wasn’t easy. But I had a wonderful lady - Aziza will always correct that - wife. And family was very very strong, beautiful children, and a group of very loyal friends. But more than that is the extent of support and affection shown by so many Malaysians of different races.
And I could see even during the last campaign in the last elections, it was unbelievable. People say, talk about that – "Anwar, you suffered. We are with you. We are sorry we couldn’t do anything, but we will help you this time." Things like that. Now this is 10 years after the incident!.
Maria Ressa:
What do you stand for now?
Anwar Ibrahim:
For democracy, for freedom. Respecting human lives, to use power not to amass wealth, and to be blatantly corrupt. So many countries having so much potential in our region and internationally could propel to greater heights but were destroyed purely by greed and unethical corrupt practices.
I think we have to prove a point. It’s somewhat like a mission. People joke me. You sound like a religious zealot. Never mind the cynicism, but it is - you have to be passionate about it. It’s not just a theoretical construct: human rights, public policy, housing policy … it’s not a theoretical construct in my mind.
You go and see how our people live there in squalor. There are squatters outside the city. It is shameful when people have hardly anything to live on, living in poor squalid conditions, and compared to the leaders who have amassed, not by the hundreds, but the billions of dollars stacked.
Maria Ressa:
Are any institutions standing? I mean, when you’re talking about doing this peaceful change, you’ll have to work with institutions.
Anwar Ibrahim:
You know, some of my academic friends say, "no Anwar, the institutions are entrenched, and therefore it has to be systemic change, cyclonic revolution."
Well, fair, but look, have some trust in the wisdom of our people. Change has got to take place, but our decision is to ensure that the transformation is peaceful, which means it’s painful for us in a way because you have to go exert a lot of patience.
For example, given a choice and the numbers, we can mount an immediate takeover by submitting a vote of no-confidence.
But we know the system. Some are so desperate. Some think that why don’t we take over? What about charges of murder or complicity to murder of so and or massive kickbacks of some deals of so and so? And so they become jittery. And this is unwise.
In a democratic process, you have to be civil. But I also tell my friends, if your intention is to go witch-hunting, you will never succeed. Countries have to respect the fact that institutions must be strengthened. The failure of the US in Iraq is promoting democracy through the lens of Washington. There’s no strong, viable or credible institutions in place. So we have to build these both.
Maria Ressa:
So what will happen next?
Anwar Ibrahim:
Now that we have a chance, and there’s this huge clamour for change and support even from Umno backbenchers, I see that we will have to calculate it carefully. Ensure that there is peace, not compromise all this, and make sure that our agenda is known to the public. But it is a matter of time. I mean, what else do they want to do? Can they call for snap elections? We welcome that, and we are happy.
Maria Ressa:
What lessons have you learned from being Deputy Prime Minister, to your fall and now the leader, leading again in a different way, pushing forward change?
Anwar Ibrahim:
Well, we must have the humility to continue to learn and benefit from our experience and the experience of others. We learn in the process. We are humbled by the treatment, and we are encouraged by the massive support. But bottom line is in public office you have to serve.
Maria Ressa:
What’s your view of what’s going on in the Philippines?
Anwar Ibrahim:
The trend is worrying because the discourse that we have in this region on issues of corruption, mismanagement, instabilities is ongoing. This is a country that we used to emulate which is known to general thinking Filipinos. So many things if you ask even agriculture in Malaysia – Los Banos, rice -- IRRI, management – Asian Institute of Management. So I mean that, and you see the Philippines with Jose Rizal, Mabini, with the analysis of these great political scientists. So we have this sort of an attachment. But it is for Filipinos to decide.
Maria Ressa:
Are there similarities that you see between the two countries?
Anwar Ibrahim:
Yeah, my message of course has to and going to be really consistent. This issue of governance, of accountability,of respecting the sentiments and wishes of the people and not be condescending, assuming that we know best and to be able to be ready to listen to the sentiments and demands of the people.
Maria Ressa:
Finally, are you optimistic?
Anwar Ibrahim:
I have consistently said - even days after I was beaten up and imprisoned - that I am an incorrigible optimist. I trust in the wisdom of our people and right now, for example, there’s generally a feeling that we need to change but what happened, but it also means that some very desperate animals will result to very desperate, despicable acts so we’ll have to be on guard.
Maria Ressa:
Surveys globally show there is great disillusionment with world leaders today. Ratings for western leaders have plunged in recent years - mirrored in most of Asia as well.
There is a global clamour for change.
In Malaysia, Dr. Mahathir is calling for an overhaul of the system he largely built. Anwar Ibrahim advocates a more calculated transition to a new government he will lead. While Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi is pushing for reforms within his ruling party.
In the end, the people will choose.
That ends Reversals of Fortune. For the ANC team, I'm Maria Ressa. Thank you for joining us.
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